Curse

DutchSmurf · May 31, 2007, 09:10 PM // 21:10

Something I've been thinking about lately is what happens if instead of nerfing Aegis, we give it a serious buff? Like higher the duration to something like 25-30 seconds. Would this make people only carry 1 copy of Aegis (and as a result making it easier to deal with) or would people still use 3 copies? I know the idea might sound strange, but if it is used once every 30 seconds instead of once every 10, it should be less of a problem.

moko · May 31, 2007, 09:32 PM // 21:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by DutchSmurf

Something I've been thinking about lately is what happens if instead of nerfing Aegis, we give it a serious buff? Like higher the duration to something like 25-30 seconds. Would this make people only carry 1 copy of Aegis (and as a result making it easier to deal with) or would people still use 3 copies? I know the idea might sound strange, but if it is used once every 30 seconds instead of once every 10, it should be less of a problem.

Arena worthy. Oo it would be way too good. an E/Mo runner would just keep it safe out of distance, and to make sure a second monk at the flagstand..IMBA.

Dzan · May 31, 2007, 09:37 PM // 21:37

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Originally Posted by Gillian Treehugger

Looking at the OP suggestions i would say he is a Warrior at heart.

Warriors are to powerful and need a big nerf then maybe the anti melee stuff could stand.

I'd say he is an Ele at heart, but what do I know.

Melody Cross · May 31, 2007, 09:44 PM // 21:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ensign

I think you want to buff it enough to make it competitive with Distracting and Savage Shot. Right now every single Ranger bar has those two interrupts, because they are without question the best and there are no substitutes.

Thinking about it a bit, I'd put it on 15e, 2...6s Daze, and 10r, with the intention of upping the recharge to 12-15 if it proves to be too good.

Short daze is interesting for the windows it creates. I'd like to see that be part of the game.

That’s sounds a fair compromise on the issue. I agree, shutdown should be a window that opens the other teams defense to a world of hurt.

As a person who prefers monk, I'd love nothing more--sometimes—than to see Dazed completely removed from the game. It makes Migraine and other shutdown Elite statuses look like a tinker toy by comparison.

But being a person who plays other characters, I understand that there is a need to break a backline other than incompetence on the other side's part.

I just don't think it should have the ability to lock players down with a single skill (or a mindlessly simple tactic and some good reflexes). Its skills and conditions like this that have inundated the game with the rock/paper/scissors gameplay we have now. Hence, I assume, the reason behind Nerf Wishlists like this thread.

Thank you for your time.

GGs

sixdartbart · May 31, 2007, 09:56 PM // 21:56

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Originally Posted by Raven Nebula

Nerf the burning arrow build. They tried to nerf natural stride, but failed. Nerf either burning arrow itself, or apply poison. Make people use a different prep and a different elite (yes, i know some people run crip or broad head, but most people don't).

I don't see BA being overpowered at all, The standard BA build gives them decent damage and survivability, but overpowered? not so much.
Take away BA rangers and the crip shots will be everywhere again and as someone who is generally wandering around the map in places I shouldn't be we really don't need the crip shots back.

LOVE the idea of a scalable mending touch, remove 1 condition 0-6 prot remove 2 conditions 7+ prot
At least make it cost some of your precious atts to be able to run around touching yourself you bunch of pervs.

There are children playing this game after all...

Age · May 31, 2007, 10:16 PM // 22:16

I kind of like most of Ensign's suggestions especially if I read it right about WatchYourself going back to +20al even at 6 a is nice.

I don't find that there needs to be any changes to Aegis as it is perfectly fine as it is.There are lots of Monks skill that could use some buffs as they are never used.I won't list them though to many.

bungusmaximus · Jun 01, 2007, 12:21 AM // 00:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by sixdartbart

LOVE the idea of a scalable mending touch, remove 1 condition 0-6 prot remove 2 conditions 7+ prot
At least make it cost some of your precious atts to be able to run around touching yourself you bunch of pervs.

There are children playing this game after all...

Or just fix the synergy with expertise, it is a spell after all.

Theres also rangers btw. that blind and touch others. I'd rather have them touch themselves instead. Noone knows what funny diseases that plague touch could bring you :P

Living Parasite · Jun 01, 2007, 12:29 AM // 00:29

Come to think of it, a miss cap would help a lot. A maximum of 75% miss percent would help limit some exceedingly ridiculous combos.

Evilsod · Jun 01, 2007, 12:32 AM // 00:32

Burning Arrow is not overpowered... its just the best thing a Ranger has going for it in competitive matches. Its more powerful than the other 95% a Ranger has available, it doesn't make it overpowered. Nerf BA, you nerf the only real bow build thats still used in PvP outside of spiking.

BHA/Concussion do not need nerfing. BHA has the most moronic arc in the game, if this hits you either deserve it or are knocked down, at which point even a 10 second Dazed would have been removed before it ends. Concussion costs 25 energy and needs to interrupt...

TheOneMephisto · Jun 01, 2007, 12:34 AM // 00:34

Quote:

Originally Posted by Living Parasite

Come to think of it, a miss cap would help a lot. A maximum of 75% miss percent would help limit some exceedingly ridiculous combos.

Miss cap of 50% would be much better IMO, with single spells able to go over OFC.

Neo-LD · Jun 01, 2007, 01:38 AM // 01:38

The problem is that even if Aegis is perfectly balanced with other protection options (it isnt), is Aegis really the kind of spell you want to encourage in competitive play? Aegis does not reward any facet of player skill. Aegis is protting for dummies, just as Recall is splitting for dummies.

Consider the single target equivilent, Guardian. With Guardian, a monk must maintain high awareness of the positions and targets of all opposing physical characters, good anticipation to sense converges, and good reflexes to get the spell there in time. Through Guardian, a good monk will end up preventing a ton more damage than a poor monk, which is exactly what we want.

But then look at Aegis. Once Aegis is up, it performs well, regardless of how talented the monk that casted it is. There is no reward for awareness, anticipation, or reflex. Aegis bypasses all of these things. You dont need to be aware of enemy targets, since your prot is everywhere at once. You dont need to anticipate enemy convengences, since you are chaining Aegis, and your prot is always up. And you certainly dont need reflexes to activate Aegis once every 30 seconds.

Aegis deserves far more than just a slight touch. If I had my way, I would blast it to oblivion - 25e and 25% block sounds like a good place to start.

Melody Cross · Jun 01, 2007, 03:29 AM // 03:29

I've tried to stay out of the monk discussion because my views on it might be a little extreme.

Damage keeps going up. Types of damage keep diversifying more and more. And Anet keeps nerfing the class because people in RA can't get kills.

Monks have been fighting hard to tread water since they started nerfing boonprots in earnest. 3 monk backlines are a symptom of this continued damage buffing by Anet and the stagnation of much of our healing/prot power. Backlines have been blurred with Sin skills and Paragons shattered the concept completely for many builds. Paragon builds were certainly overpowered. They gave a group buff that lasts a long time and couldn't be stripped or--for many--interrupted. Aegis is a 2 second casting time--stripable--enchantment on a player that should be spending every possible second kiting from your frontline.

And it is a group buff. Aegis brings the most powerful DPS damage in the game--melee--down to something manageable. You can't just swap targets when you see a yellow arrow over someone's head and expect to waste a monks energy with over prot while you outrun his casts. Offense needs to think and design itself towards breaking through Aegis instead of relying solely on numbers and Adren spikes while the infuser is KDed, dazed, Diverted, has Shame on them, etc.

If you really want Aegis nerfed, you would do well to start calling for a load of buffs to the class first. If Anet did give you your way in this, GvGs either won't last two minutes before most monks crash or you'll be seeing a few four monk backlines in the next balance.

Thats what I think about another nerf to monks.

GGs

Wasteland Squidget · Jun 01, 2007, 04:03 AM // 04:03

Quote:

Originally Posted by Melody Cross

Monks have been fighting hard to tread water since they started nerfing boonprots in earnest. 3 monk backlines are a symptom of this continued damage buffing by Anet and the stagnation of much of our healing/prot power.

You mean monk runners in GvG? Those exist because eles stopped being viable base defenders with the introduction of Mending Touch. Teams want to be able to leave their runner back to deal with a gank while they push at the stand, and a monk runner is one of the most effective ways to do that. A damage increase in large fights doesn't make me want to bring more monks, it makes me want to bring a bunch of defensive midline casters and 321spike people to death.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Melody Cross

Aegis is a 2 second casting time--stripable--enchantment on a player that should be spending every possible second kiting from your frontline.

If you're literally spending every second of a match as a monk kiting the enemy warriors, they're either playing an incredibly agressive game (think cow), or they're very bad. Chasing monks isn't that strong a play most of the time, both because monks carry a lot of strong self-defense (hi Disciplined Stance) and because it keeps you from disrupting the enemy's gameplan by messing with their midline.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Melody Cross

And it is a group buff. Aegis brings the most powerful DPS damage in the game--melee--down to something manageable. You can't just swap targets when you see a yellow arrow over someone's head and expect to waste a monks energy with over prot while you outrun his casts. Offense needs to think and design itself towards breaking through Aegis instead of relying solely on numbers and Adren spikes while the infuser is KDed, dazed, Diverted, has Shame on them, etc.

Aegis doesn't require much thought, offensively or defensively. When I want to break Aegis with an offense, I interrupt a cast then push while it's down, because you aren't going to break a team with your DPS halved and your spike/threat capability neutralized.

Defensively, Aegis takes about as much thought as sitting on your keyboard.

I happen to think Aegis is reasonably balanced with its current numbers, but let's not kid ourselves - it's an excessively easy skill to use without a wide range of interesting counters. Whether that means it should be nerfed depends on whether Arenanet is interested in rewarding player skill, and I think they've made their feelings on that subject very clear.

Div · Jun 01, 2007, 04:09 AM // 04:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by Melody Cross

Monks have been fighting hard to tread water since they started nerfing boonprots in earnest. 3 monk backlines are a symptom of this continued damage buffing by Anet and the stagnation of much of our healing/prot power. Backlines have been blurred with Sin skills and Paragons shattered the concept completely for many builds. Paragon builds were certainly overpowered. They gave a group buff that lasts a long time and couldn't be stripped or--for many--interrupted. Aegis is a 2 second casting time--stripable--enchantment on a player that should be spending every possible second kiting from your frontline.

If you really want Aegis nerfed, you would do well to start calling for a load of buffs to the class first. If Anet did give you your way in this, GvGs either won't last two minutes before most monks crash or you'll be seeing a few four monk backlines in the next balance.

Well, first of all, people generally run 2 monk backlines in GvG, not 3. I've always been a fan of aegis and didn't think it needed nerfing because of how powerful the other attack skills are, but after hearing some of the arguments, I can understand how a slight nerf is warranted. If Anet actually listens to Ensign and nerfs those skills he listed, overall pressure would be a little lower. A balance of aegis to be based on prot prayers (scaled something like 16...40...48 or 18...42...50) would be bearable. At 14 prot (which is what a prot monk has), it'll give a 44 or 46% block chance. The only big thing it'll affect is the mindless chaining and power from heal monks, runners, or support aegis (which generally has 9 prot, meaning in this system it'd only give 34 or 36% block chance).

Riotgear · Jun 01, 2007, 04:47 AM // 04:47

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Originally Posted by Zuranthium

"It's spiking for retards", yes, but without IAS it would definitely be less of a spike. The fragility of sin combos simply must be kept in mind.

The fragility of sin combos is a problem of its own, and a better point to address than trying to balance other crap around it. The buff to Jagged Strike was a step in the right direction of moving them away from stupid forced attack chains which inherently makes firing off two duals in quick succession one of the only viable options. Switching Exhausting Assault to require a lead and make it fit very nicely on Moebius bars was another good move.

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With slower attacks, you're giving them more time to put up prot and a greater chance of interrupting the Horns of the Ox knockdown or the second offhand hand before it hits.

The problem is that ANet is going to wind up having to play whack-a-mole with IAS skills if they're not going to just kill the problem at the source.. Some are running Flurry because the base damage is so irrelevant anyway, some are running Flail because no one cares about a move debuff when your target has an even worse one, and even if you nerf all of the Strength IAS skills, they'll have Tiger's Fury and Whirling Charge.

Just kick Shadow Prison in the groin and get it over with.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Living Parasite

That's a very narrow-minded point of view that many won't agree with. You're trying to impose your view of how GvG games SHOULD be, however I (and hopefully many others) think you shouldn't limit strategy but discourage strategies that require less skill to effectively run that other skills.

When a class is given a huge amount of utility and offensive power under the assumption that they're going to be tethered by melee range, giving them the ability to do their thing from caster range breaks things very easily.

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Btw, LoD heal party members under 70% anyone?

Yep.

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Originally Posted by Oink The Pig

I would really like to see some sort of reworking for Vocal Minority and other anti-shout measures because they simply don't work.

Making them not suck against everything except Paragonway would be a nice start. The only skill of that sort that even comes close is Well of Silence.

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Take the combos away and you have a pretty worthless primary profession.

When something is poorly-designed, even if it's something as broad as an entire class, it shouldn't be entertained. Playing the "buff it until people use it" game is stupid, it produces crap like Discord which is half-overpowered, half-crap, and makes the game significantly less fun.

The whole concept of a "solo-spiker" with the ability to engage from earshot range is ridiculous. There are numerous concepts in Deadly Arts that deserve far more attention to create a more versatile disruption/damage class, rather than making a class that serves no purpose but to be training wheels for bad players.

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Against an experienced Monk, you really need to use two hexes to even have a chance at a kill on the BLS chain.

[skill]Expose Defenses[/skill][skill]Shadow Prison[/skill]
That's already been solved.

martialis · Jun 01, 2007, 04:48 AM // 04:48

To clarify - is the proposed nerf to "Watch Yourself!" meant mainly for paragons, or for steady stance warriors?

Why not raise it to 8 adrenaline? Hell, 10 adrenaline, who cares? Maybe increase the duration a little bit. That would make it harder to use for s-s warriors, but not impossible.

If we're making (random) suggestions for nerfs, how about making reckless haste ignore the cap on IAS?

The idea for Broad Head Arrow might be unacceptable. It seems that the skill is intended to cause permanent daze on a character who is distracted. You could give it a 3 second activation time, like those Paragon attacks. Would that be stupid?

Farin · Jun 01, 2007, 05:11 AM // 05:11

Oh I'll go ahead and propose one. All "Party" skills (Heal Party, Orders, LoD, Aegis) changed to earshot. Yeyeye

Riotgear · Jun 01, 2007, 05:18 AM // 05:18

On another note, I don't think there's much you can do to make Concussion Shot really worth taking over Savage or Distracting, simply because they're both extremely good skills that interrupt ANYTHING. Concussion Shot isn't going to stop Rez, Purge, Humility, attack chains, avatars, binding rituals, etc. Savage has additional utility as a spike-assist, distracting shot's secondary effect is just indescribably leet.

I think Concussion is kind of doomed just because its "competition" is just too good, and it's difficult to justify bringing a third interrupt.

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You could give it a 3 second activation time, like those Paragon attacks. Would that be stupid?

Speaking of distracting shot....

Although 2s may be a good idea if the arc is dropped and duration significantly lowered.

manitoba1073 · Jun 01, 2007, 05:31 AM // 05:31

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Originally Posted by holymasamune

Skill changes were almost always meant to be for PvP. PvE has such a big leeway (yes, even in hard mode) that minor tweaks to those skills have very little affect on the outcome. People just don't like to see their commonly used cookie-cutter builds weakened, which is why they whine about it. True PvE'rs who are innovative and want to find new skill combos won't find it as much of a nuisance, only the wanna-be's who can only run one build through entire PvE think that skill changes aren't good.

As I had said. They are good for the PvP and not so good for the PvE. And yes there is an impact. Lets see PvP is lvl 20 vs lvl 20 where as PvE in HM is lvl 20 vs lvl 24+ that is doing 50%+ faster attacks and everything.

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Originally Posted by Nurse With Wound

This is PVP discussion thread, in PVP forums . Keep your PVE out of it. The amount of posts we had to delete is frightening. If you have no clue about PVP state of the game, don't post. Unhappy with changes? Feel free to post a whining thread in campfire. End of transmission, proceed.

Odd seems to me that PvP skills are also PvE skills unless I missed some memo that they made all skills seperate. Thus some discusion of the PvE side is warrented. Unless you would like to tell the PvPers to stay outa any PvE discussions?

Living Parasite · Jun 01, 2007, 07:15 AM // 07:15

Don't agree with the Earshot idea. Degen and warrior builds will become too powerful if that is implemented.